Will there be a "makeaTNTprim" script? =)

Also, awesome explanations =)

Hey Sleek ...

There will be a "makeaTNTPrim" script

What I meant exactly is, that with Skidz Primz, it can find non Skidz Primz (or normal prims) around itself, and dynamically rezzes an interface around them, requiring no scripts at all in the prim you want to align to. TNT Primz will not have this capability.

But in return you are gaining speed, and lower resources. And you can always use the MakeATNTPrim script.

Well I am not blind, I rez one prim and complete my builds using copies off it ( so all primz in build are skidz till a certain point when I remove some), and don’t use mega prims. If I am a new customer coming to buy skidz/TnT primz, I can just buy the TNT primz. I will have the snapping feature plus the additional features and pay $1650L less than the people currently using skidz primz.

Hi Horatio... Pretty much.. all but the less part. TNT Primz are more expensive than Skidz Primz. I still have not set a final price. It will be announced the day of the release. But you can get them now in a beta for 4650 on Skidz Isle near the Skidz Primz display.

I have not seen a whole lot of information in print as to what the new product will be capable until tonight. Right now as it stands, if you sell the TNT primz for the 4650 or more, and only give current skidz users a 1000 discount in the future when you release update for skidz to make them work with the TNT, then current users such as myself would pay at least 1650 more than a user looking for the features I enjoy now plus the additional TNT features. I know I am not alone in this, I can see an upgrade charge, I understand that you are a business, I wont argue the point over free upgrades, but its not right for current customers to pay 1650 more based on the current price of the two products. Take out the snapping feature from the TNT primz and I have no argument.

Hi Horatio

I see these as different products, with different features and functions. Yes, some overlap exists, but based on what I have seen of the Beta so far, and Skidz' video, I expect I will work with both, choosing which to use based on what I am doing.

Example: a while back I did a very large build (the prim count got into the thousands!), and the script lag was hammering the whole sim. I could have done a lot of that build with TNT Primz and saved considerable time and effort.

One other point: I think sometimes we all get a bit carried away with prices in SL ... face it, convert these back to real $$ and we're getting a total steal from Skidz ... I've seen trivial texture alignment scripts selling for as much as L$15,000 in SL to people who didn't know better. Skidz prices are incredibly low for what we get.

Hi Horatio.. I think your confused (either that or I am). When you buy TNT Primz, you don't get a copy of Skidz Primz, and vis-versa. They will be separate products for all.

Your right, there is not a lot of information in print just yet. Mostly because I don't want to over promise just to run into an obstetrical I can't over come. I have a good video that goes over what they do so far on:
http://www.youtube.com/user/skidzpartz#play/all/uploads-all/2/enLgLG4to8g

I watched the video the day it was announced in a group notice. This is your website and your forum and if you want to dance all around my complaint thats fine. But , we are the ones in the sandboxes building and when the others there come up and ask for the texture I am using , meaning the texture on the skidz prim there may be another response than the one we give them now, and if this is how you want to do business then I wont be passing landmarks or even walking them up to the vendor anymore. I have even given two of them the money to buy skidz. I didn’t imply in either of my previous posts that you would be including the skidz primz with the purchase of the TNT primz, I was referring to the features of skidz that made me buy them in the first place. snap being the main one. As I said in my previous post, remove the snapping feature from the tnt primz and I will not have the issue I am having now with this new/ upgraded product. Removing the snapping feature would truly make TnT a new product.

I am sorry you feel I was dancing around you issue.. it must be I am confused. I don't really understand your issue. For real.

I don't understand why you would want to remove snap. No one is forcing you to buy TNT Primz either. Skidz Primz work great.

I am up for suggestions, but I am not going to remove functionality.

Because you are promoting and getting ready to sell a product that has the same basic features as a product you have been selling and promised free upgrades to and are offering a price that makes the current users have more money invested than any new user that comes along.

I am sorry you don't find the additional features that TNT Primz does not support valuable. But there are many that do. If I made this an update, what do I do about there complaints next? I am sure I will sell plenty of Skidz Primz still after the release of TNT Primz, so to get the same functionality you will have, they will not get it cheaper, in fact, they will pay 1000 lindens more because they don't get the discount voucher.

Anyway I go, someone is not happy. I think I made the best choice for my customers. If you also agree with Horatio, please let me know. Would you like SNap removed from TNT Primz?

Also, I want to say again, Skidz Primz are not dead. They will be updates, new feature, so on.. and so on..

same basic features such as no pins? such as a texture aligner built into it? same basic features like how the scripts are not active like Skidz primz? Im not sure if your having a bad day horatio, but this is all touchpoints. If i own a table saw, and a new style table came out that is a drill press and a tablesaw, is it the same tool or a new one? 5 months of work for skidz to get this perfect, i think 1650 is a helluva good deal. should he have spent that 5 months to make it free? as i have stated in previous entries, Skidz Parts has ALWAYS had free upgrades. Many many other creators do not offer this, nor are they on top of solving their issues as fast as SP. your getting a steal my friend.

9 Months total from beginning to end

I have said numerous times,, I have no complaint when it comes to an upgrade charge,,but tnt is built off the basic skidz primz functions,, it is an upgrade with new functions. It is not a new product.I dont see why current skidz primz users should have to pay the same price or more than new users. we are the ones that promoted you product to start with skidz! Sir do you not know the power of word of mouth?,, this is unfair and a bad way to do business. I wont continue this, I will make my judgment as what to do on the basis of the final outcome of this situation.

Im pissed, i just got off the phone with circuit city. I had bought a 42 inch Hitachi TV from them. Well i found out there is an upgraded version to it and (new features added to it)the bastards wont give it to me for free. THAT SUCKS!

Horatio:
The situation outcome is exactly what it is. I am sorry your not happy. Like I said, no matter what I do someone will not be happy. It has put me in an impossible position, and I except you dissatisfaction. I hope you can find it within your heart to forgive me sometime.

I also know word of mouth, my entire business is built on it. While I hope you won't talk ill of me I can see why you might feel the need, just please also pass on my point of view by directing them here, that way they can make a fair and balanced decision.

To Abel:
A better analogy would be.. If you bought a table saw that gives free updates.. and over time they updated the motor... other things.. It cuts metal, wood, everything.

Then they come out a table saw that uses a lazer.. But didn't cut wood, instead cut Everything else.

Is that new product?
Or should that be a free update?

I get bashed and told your not around to reply in SL but we get replies to my posts, here on your forum. I understand your point about not pleasing everyone and expecting percentage of people to not be happy about your decision of calling this a seperate product. Abraham Lincoln said " “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”. From my experience in retail managment, this has been handled in the worst way. You offered existing skidz primz customers the beta for 3K L but you made no mention of what We could expect for our money,, now when I give you my opinions on this forum, you dont answer my question and when I say anything inworld someone tells me my claim is not valid, you will not respond to it or discuss it, but then i see you reply here on this skidz.com website to things I said in world. Sir, I am not trying to be a pain in the ass but this is WRONG!I am asking for a fair price, I am asking for you to answer my question directly on why a current skidz user would pay so much for an upgreade,, if the snapping, aligning of prims is not the basis of both skidz primz and tnt primz then it is obviously an upgrade. i understand you made improvments but the price your asking of your exsisting customers is out of line when you had promised free upgrades for skidz,, the only mention of what can be expected in future upgrades of skidz is the ability to interact with the new scripting for TnT. I am only asking you to be fair to us.

I forgot to add:You give an example of blind people being one of the reasons,, seems to me your just grasping at straws to find reasons this is not an upgrade in your opinion

Horatio, I really am trying to engage in a dialog here. Have I not answered one of your question? I looked through and red all the post again, and I don't see a question I didn't answer. I did read though it a second time quickly, so I admit I could have missed some question. But mostly I see statements. And I have done my best to address those complaints with you. I even searched for "?" marks and the one I did see, I answer.

Could you please state your question again?

Could you answer my question on the table saw? Is that a free update, or a new product?

I don't think you should belittle the fact that disabled are able to build thanks to the Skidz Primz. I am not grasping at straws on a point like this. There are more disabled people in Second Life than you would believe, and I take offense to that accusation.

Skidz
I said nothing to belittle the fact that blind people can use your product, that's another example of you skating around the issue, and I wont contest that they can actually use skidz primz. I would assume they would be a very small minority in a chat program that only is different from yahoo chat, aol chat, icq, a few hundred other text based chat programs, because of the building portion of the sl experience as it relates to us. If they want to build in SL then I am glad that you can supply them with a product to help them do that.I have not seen the fact that skidz can help blind people build as a selling point in any of your advertisements for skidz , in any of your advertisements.There are many web pages containing info related to blind people using SL,check that out for yourselves, use google or another search engine. One of my questions now is how you can use such a small minority of sl users, blind people, a small population in a chat program with a heavy emphasis on virtual objects, things you can see and manipulate, and an even smaller percentage that actually build to justify tnt as a new product. Can you continue to offer them the current skidz and still offer an upgrade to the rest of us at a reasonable upgrade price? A price that is fair to the mass that gave you the opportunity/funding to do the work you have to complete the upgrade? to the massive group of visualy unimpaired skidz primz users? You could even allow the visually impared population that builds with skidz buy the upgrade same as non visually impaired population using skidz? What percentage of your skidz primz users are blind vs ones that need to wear glasses to drive a car and others that do not have any vision impairments? You are making comments that are very out of line, may be preying on the sympathies of the physically impaired residents of sl as yet another way to avoid the questions put to you.Is punctuation so important here in your forum that you will use that as a ba...

If you offer free updates and you add more functions to that product, the table saw will still snap gap fill etc,, the basic and major selling points for skidz primz over other products then you gain market share and add something to that that saw through product development meant to remain an innovator in the table saw world and continue that market advantage. then you offer the add ons to your current customers at a fair price. It costs more to make customers than to keep them.

I have been a skidz primz user for a long time now and dont have any problems in purchasing the new TNT primz (as i have). I dont expect a update as from testing with beta release, its new fresh new product that does much more than skidz primz done. Ilove not having to use SL Edit mode to texture for example. As for the overlap on certain features, is great but some seem to focus on certain features when the bigger picture is ITS NEW with NEW Features and less Pins.I am not a scripter but from my way of thinking is if it was just a case of " add-ons" then the product would have been out sooner and bulky. BUT with all the new coding done/time and sweat put into this i personally dont mind spending the Lindens and cant wait to get the full product.

To Horatio:

Question was:
How you can use such a small minority of sl users, blind people, a small population in a chat program with a heavy emphasis on virtual objects, things you can see and manipulate, and an even smaller percentage that actually build to justify tnt as a new product?
Answer:
I am not, I gave that as one of many valid reasons why Skidz Primz are staying and TNT Primz are a new product. The other reasons I gave were: They would not work with huge prims, and they do not work with prims that do not have Skidz or TNT primz in them.

Next Question:
Can you continue to offer them the current skidz and still offer an upgrade to the rest of us at a reasonable upgrade price?
Answer:
Yes.. I can do that. Actually, thats exactly what I am doing. I am giving you a 1000 linden discount. And why I didn't want to announce this here, because I like to under promise and over deliver, it MIGHT be more.

Again, reading the rest of your response, I feel you are belittling the handicaps in SL. I don't care if it one person! The number of handicap people that use the skidz primz does not matter at all. Would it make it ok to take this away from 100 handicap people? How about 1 handicap person? Where would you draw the line? I can't draw that line myself at all. Thats why the number does not matter.

This is not an update to Skidz Primz. Nothing you could say would make me change that fact either. I am sorry you don't find the feature that would end up being missing if it was an update valuable, or of no consequence to you but most will. Like I said before, I except your disappointment, and I am sorry you feel that way.

For the record also, I have openly stated for 6 months now that this is not an upgrade, that this is a new product. I have had several people come up and question me on this, and ever single one understood after I explained it to them, and not one was upset of this fact. You are the only person that has expressed dissatisfaction to me to this ...

The rest:

I also never avoided one of your questions. You keep making accusations like these. Please stop. If you feel I didn't answer one of your questions, then please re ask it. Also might try rephrasing the question, as it might not have been clear to me in the first place. Also stop accusing me of dancing around, or preying on people sympathies. I don't appreciate it at all. I have been nothing but honest, open and strait forward. I have ran a company that I am proud of. That helps people. That supplies items in a 3d world that are actually useful. I have donated several hundred thousand lindens to school, and other great causes in SL, I have provided two giant sandboxes for people to work in at $600 dollars a month for the past 10 months, and a 1 sim sandbox at 300 dollars a month for a year prior to that. I have donated my time to worth while events in second life, and even help several other get started with a business of there own. I have never ripped off one single person. I send refunds to people without them asking when they purchase a product twice and I notice. I have spent considerable time and effort developing application like Gridaverse.com, and the free web prim that I give away for free. I help people when they ask and I have time. And I answer every single one of my tech support questions personally. Not once have I ever mention these things in public because I thuoght there was no need. and I don't mention these things to brag, but as a charter witness, because you are accusing me of thing I don't appreciate.

Good on you Skidz, i dont claim to know you very well but from what i do know your a descent/good guy. Who works damn hard for himself and to make Second Life a better place to Build and all the others you have helped in the past, present and coming future. In my mind you dont need to justify yourself to others you just keep up the good work

Thanks Matto. I really appreciate hearing that right now.

I am a reasonably adept builder and while I've long been aware of Skidz Prims, I've never felt the need to investigate them further as I felt that I did not "need" them.

After reading these comments and how admirably the proprietor of Skidz Partz handles confusing (to me anyway) complaints that less-patient merchants would probably be only too tempted to delete and ignore, I've decided I am going to become a Skidz Partz customer today. I don't know exactly which of your products I will find useful, but I know that I want to support a content creator with an attitude like yours.

So kudos, Skidz, and please keep up the excellent example you set as a business owner in this virtual world we share. You are a true professional.

/me smiles from ear to ear.. Bet thats smile is there all day now
Thanks Nadine

It is very clear to me what Horatio was saying in his first post. It is a reasonable question. In the article skidz posted here he only gives 3 reasons why tnt is not an update, not several as he later claims. The reasons related to functionality, they don’t work with huge prims, they don’t work with normal unscripted prims, and blind people can use the skidz prims. I wont paste the quotes here you can read the article again yourself. Horatio states that he is not blind, he does not build with huge prims, and just like skidzs , he does not have his scripted prims interact with unscripted prims when he builds. With that said, a new customer who also does not need those three abilities can buy the tnt primz. The new customer will have 4650L invested and will have the updated interface and the new features. That person will not have to buy the skidz primz because he/she does not need to use them with unscripted primz, huge prims, and are not blind. No reason to spend 2650L more on skidz. The three reasons you gave for them being separate products. But , if horaito buys the tnt primz for 4650L and gets 1000L rebate , add in the 2650L he already paid for the skidz primz and he has 1650L more invested than the new customer who only buys the tnt primz and only needs the same abilities as horatio. It appears to me that horatio made the statement that he was not blind just to lay the basis for his complaint, not to bash disabled people like you claim later in another post. Maybe you didn’t understand his question and maybe you still don’t even though it is plain to me and a valid question in my opinion. He isn’t asking for a free upgrade he is just asking for a fair price for your customers who have already paid for the same basic functions when they bought the skidz primz. What reason do you have that an existing skidz user should only get a 1000L discount? I have read the notes you have in the vendor for tnt and skidz and the two products do appear to be designed wit...

I have read the notes you have in the vendor for tnt and skidz and the two products do appear to be designed with the same basic functions, snap gap rotscale etc. in your future upgrade to skidz, will there be a more streamlined less resource hogging interface? If so then maybe sticking with the skidz is the best choice for him and anyone else who only needs those basic functions. I went to look at the products today and allowed the vendor to open my browser to view this website. Based on what I have seen and read so far in the notes and on this site, I will be waiting for the update to skidz before I decide to buy which of or any of the two products discussed here.

Reading this with interest as an imminent customer. My friend has just bought Skidz Prims, and completed his first build, and I was so impressed I was about to do likewise, but now he feels cheated. He, like Horatio,(maybe)Christine, and myself, see Tnt Prims as Skidz Prims reworked and upgraded, maybe seriously upgraded, but same functionality. So, he's bought a product that, lets face it, will wither with respect to the newer product.If Skidz Prims gains functionality to take it towards Tnt Primz, and Tnt gains likewise, then 2 almost identical products will exist and need supported.

And instead of comparing RL physical products (I've yet to find a woodworking saw with any NoTrans component, so I'm free to sell it on when I no longer need it, having bought my new laser saw), try looking at RL digital media. For "completely new products", look at Microsoft Windows/XP/Vista/7. "completely new", but with an upgrade path. I'm a software writer myself RL, and fully understand the need to get paid for work, but I think the new product falls on the wrong side of "completely new functionality", and it is disingenious to claim otherwise. I'll be buying one product, but I'll wait and watch for a while. I do feel my sympathies lie with the previous Skidz Primz purchasers though, based on the current (albeit provisional)information.
I do think Skidz, you put up a genuine straightforward position, and I suppose only time will tell if you jodged it right, our exisiting customers vote with the feet (or L$, in this case)

No matter which way I go, people are going to be unhappy, and I am sorry you feel that way. But you should note that I already said that the discount coupon might be higher, because I like to under promise and over deliver.

What more can I do to make your happy? I am willing to listen, and implement it if its a good solution.

I am actually having a tough time deciding which of these two (TNT or Primz) to purchase. Would you happen to have a side-by-side comparison chart maybe?

Thanks.

Hi Nadine.. no, I don't, but great idea...

Modes Skidz TNT
---------------------
Mirror: x --- 0
Texture: 0 --- x
SideRot: 0 --- x

Prims
---------------------
Mega: x --- 0
Tiny: x --- 0
sculpty: 0 --- x

Also note, Skidz Primz can work with prims that have no scripts in them at all, aligning to them filling gaps between them, and TNT can not do this, it require each prim to be a TNT prim. But TNT primz are use less sim resources.

Everything I left out they both have.

I will draw up a chart as well Thanks for the idea.

Thanks, Skidz. I received your comparison chart in-world too.

I'm not sure I'm any closer to making a decision though, as there are features I could use which only one or the other has. Mirror, megas, sculpties, texture alignment.

I don't suppose there are plans to provide a tool which possesses everything?

By the way, folks: looking at the comparison chart, it's quite evident that TNT Primz is *not* just a straightforward upgrade. There are some features which only Skidz Primz has and TNT does not.

[quote]I don't suppose there are plans to provide a tool which possesses everything?[quote]

Now there lies the big problem. It really is not possible to do that, or I would have. Its how I implemented these two different product that actually facilitates there features. For example you want Mega, and sculpties. Skidz Primz support Mega just fine, because it wraps an interface around the mega, and TNT support sculpties just fine, because the interface replace the prim as the sculpty itself. But... I could never wrap an interface around a sculpty (no data to read on it shape), and I could never replace a mega prim with the interface because I can't resize a prim larger than 10x10.

And this comes back to exactly why they are two products.

Mirror one day I might be able to squeeze into the single script of the TNT Primz (thats why theres no mirror, it wouldn't fit into the script).

While I want to say, get TNT Primz, so you can see how kewl they are... I think the best suggested for you is to buy Skidz Primz for now, and then when I release the update to make them play nice together, you will get a coupon in the update package to purchase TNT primz at a nice discount. Then as you work, you can choose which products is best for you.

I work with such a variety of prims/objects so I think that's why it is a little more challenging for me to decide which is the better choice for my needs.

Danke for the suggestion, Herr Tweak.

Hi,

when i heard about the new TNT Prims and saw the video, which was yesterday, i was really exited. But then i saw the price and realized that this is an independent product, and i have to admit i was a little bit shocked, but only for short time. Now i think, that it is totally justified to market the TNT Prims as an independent tool along skidz primz. Why? I was using Skidz Primz for quite some time now, remembered myself of, what an outstanding inovative and well thought out tool it is. (this is really no exaggeration, as everybody who is using products from skidz tweak should know)And because of this i think it is really ok, to pay for the new TNT primz tool, which is imo also very inovative and just well, damn handy.(I hope so, havent bought it yet, but i will buy it with no doubt that i get a good product for my money)
please everybody excuse my messy english ;D

I know that I would be happy as all hell if you could find a way for the Skidz Prims to lose that that horrible HUD. I use megas all the time so sadly the new TnT primz are not an option for me ( grrrr ). is there any way to perhaps make the HUD go away on an update?

I do have plans to add a minimize button to the Skidz Primz Hud in the next release.

Aww I Was dreaming of a fancy-dancey interface. A minimize button is SOOO last version... LOL!

All is good.. I luuuuuvsss me Skidz primz!!

Skidz,

I have read the entire post here and must say bravo to you. Standing on principle and not giving in to angry tyrates is an honerable trait.
I currently use prim docker but will be buying both of your products when I get home.
I might add both of my children are handicapped and to see someone advocate for them in such a fierce manner is heartwarming. You keep up the good work and Im sure ill enjoy your products very much.

Thank you again

Hey Skidz.. you mentioned in an earlier post that there is the possibility that you would be offering a rebate on the TNT primz for those that already use the Skidz Primz, and that would be in a future update. Any word on when that will be? I am dying to get my hands on the TNT Primz and have a build on the back burner now waiting for them. I just don't want to jump the gun and buy too soon. Is it gonna be a long wait?